Are Shanghai Customers Just Too Demanding?
Recently absolute mayhem broke out on in the comment section of three listings: Malone's (TRL), Apothecary and Egghead Bagels. The reasons were all different, but the main message was the same--the venues needed to improve. The venue management (on two of the listings) and a number of onlookers got involved in heated discussions about who was right and who was wrong.
It's not the first time this has happened. Here is another great example. Instead of letting it spiral into a flame war, we killed it and moved the debate over to this blog post.
Here's a sampling of what people were saying:
american says: With customers like these it's amazing anyone bothers to open business to Expats. Never has there been a group (within a group) of people with their expectations more out of whack than the sort that feel the need to remind everyone about "how things work in America".
theblt says: Shanghai has become a place where people feel its ok to bully business owners in the name of "the customer's always right" - that is only true when you're making real requests based on real problems, not when you feel the need to walk into the place and turn it into your own space and completely ignore the establishment's needs and atmosphere.
tinaslo says: I would also have to disagree with the statement that the customer is always right, especially in Shanghai where you see so many people expecting to be treated like royalty…
Do these guys have a point? Are Shanghai customers too demanding? More specifically, are expats too demanding? Living abroad brings a barrage of new stresses. The bitter combination of language barriers and acute home sickness can be tough on the psyche. So it’s easy to become a little jaded sometimes.
But what do you think? Who’s right and who’s wrong in these situations? Tell us in the comments below.
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Yeah- there is a lot of 'but this is China' handwaving done by restaurateurs. My opinion is that if they want to charge international prices, they had better deliver international quality service- end of story, no excuses. Yes it's hard, yes it requires training, but some people manage to do it, and still maintain their margins.
On one hand Shanghai customers might be to demanding; in the other hand Shanghai restaurateurs often set high expectations. In Shanghai it's easy to find amateur operations that advertise themselves as if they had received 5 Michelin's. They advertise and price accordingly to the expectations, and bottomline the owner doesn't understands the F&B business and the place becomes a fail. Shanghai is the only place were the owner of a burrito shop can claim herself a Chef and cooks that back in their country were nobody's can advertise and run operations as if they had been our Majesty's Chef. No wonders how come they miss the basics and don't know how to manage simple situations (disputes) with the patrons. They don't know how to manage them just because they lack experience. Running a successful restaurant everywhere requires more than a self proclaimed socialite-chef, advertising(spam in the case of many shanghai restaurants) , a trendy location, and overpriced dishes. Just analyze the average life span of Shanghai restaurants; it seems like the hobby of many laowais is burning their cash by opening a restaurant in Shanghai. To their credit a hard business; customers come and leave every couple of months, hard to develop a solid clientele. For patrons is obvious to spot amateur operations, places trying to sell pan-fried seabass as if it was a delicacy, 60 kuai burritos, just think! $9 Dollars for a burrito!
I have the opposite opinion, I think Shanghai customers have spoilt restaurateurs and tolerated their crappy service, high prices, unnecessary attitude, and protagonism.
"Yeah- there is a lot of 'but this is China' handwaving done by restaurateurs. My opinion is that if they want to charge international prices, they had better deliver international quality service- end of story, no excuses. Yes it's hard, yes it requires training, but some people manage to do it, and still maintain their margins."
See also "Shangri-La Yi Cafe" for a very good example of non-Chinese management and Chinese waitstaff working together to create an excellent dining experience.
And that's the issue: management. If you build it, they will come, but if you work it properly, they'll come back.
Rene, I don't think I've ever seen you say anything positive about anything, ever.
You're right Narfs, it is management- and money, and the managements' desire to have more money, because they are a diva, a DIVA I say! Not to point at restaurantrepreneurs like Jean-Kellyduardo Pourcelaris, no no no.... They'd never, ever open another restaurant before they had the kinks worked out of the first one, no way. That would be wrong, and treating Shanghai's dining clientele like they were novelty-seeking social butterflies with the short term memory of a senile goldfish.
I posted on the original Malone's website and understand my comments were removed as it is a space for reviews not blog comments. However i will repeat again what i said as i think its important. The gentleman representing Malone's, Mr Paul (also known as djsexypaul) seems two faced. Whilst embaressing his own staff with the often typical expat comments he left about bad staff in China and how you cant get them fired (what a way to motivate them eh?) at the same time he seems to be a chief reviewer of many venues all over Shanghai, he seems to revel in his reviewing. He loves to comment on service this & food that on numerous websites. No problem, even as an operator of a well-know place, but when he tells other readers/users to better speak to management instead of just writing reviews, does he do this himself? I doubt it. So as i said before, what goes around comes around. In the meantime I suggest Paul worries about his own doorstep and attempts to do something concrete about the poor service reviews at Malone's instead of worrying about reviewing other venues so much. I fear the owners should be managing this man Paul more.
Just my opinion....there is a lot of trash arriving in Shanghai,overal the world is getting more trashy and what I have seen around me in the past 6 years( Chinese parvenues and western scum), for sure Shanghai attracts A more than average percentage. 'Money rules(for Chinese) and combine this with a totally 'out of this world' basic attitude of looking down on Asian people by trashy Westerners. I feel ashamed...Consumers: 'I pay so I disbehave...brrrrrr......(ok, that's one part)
Serving Staff and Management; most of them have no clue: 'I got money so lets start a restaurant'-idiots....staff is not educated, scratching their balls, picking their nose in fornt of you....I have send some to the bathroom before they had to serve my food...never a complaint, i did it in a decent way and we both smiled.....
Western staff in a Chinese venue? Philipines? they see thier Western collegues behave, copy, and then it gets worse...we are not used to accept ATTITUDES from Asians. They misbehave for sure, collegues 'teached' them and their trash clientele did the rest.
So.... who's fault? no ones, just every ones....
take care and behave, whatever scum head you are or job you have(not only in the hospitality Industry...:)
eric
At the risk of both provoking other Web site users and taking a cheap shot at the CW staff, I find the idea that a few comments on CW's Web site concerning the credibility of a restaurant are an indication of general customer and/or management trends in Shanghai to be very misleading, if not altogether wrong.
You might be right Zachary...
Fickle customers who suffer cultural difficulties in their jobs and then the same problems when they are trying to relax in venues. Weak operators with inexperience who also cant deal with the low-end staff & customer issues that come from a place obsessed with money, and finally a pretty weak & inexperienced youthful media who love to soak up the two aforementioned targets and spit them out at will. What a great blend....only in Shanghai perhaps?
PEOPLE, WAKE UP, this dirt bags are taking our money, selling burritos for $ 9 US dollars, that would be unbelievable back home, another douche is selling pan fried sea bass for $20 US dollars. Who is up to pay that prices.I went to school , I invested my time studying, went to business school abroad, and a Phd. in an university were most of the douches reading this blog wont be able to get into and I'm not up to pay this dirt bags the prices they are trying to charge. I'm PISSED TO DEATH! I just came back home from a dump called YUCCA that claims to be a Mexican joint. Warm as hell, the douche didn't dare to turn on the A/C, this place is owned by LARIS, they are trying to rip us off!.. We sat upstairs , drinks took 40 min to come. OK , I'm a consultant, I'm forced to take clients outs and I never foot the bill, but this dirt bags from SINAN Lu don't deserve anything,. OOOOOHH FCk, the guy from the apothecary is a douche, my client nearly got into a fight with him.
@Zachary CW makes a living on advertising, , @ LEEMACK, @SFRiEDMAN reviews are completely biased, everybody knows that.
You may be only half right Zachary... But that means you're HALF WRONG! Muaahahahahahahaha!
If you get your impressions of a place only by looking at reviews on some three-bit website, then you deserve your ignorance.
If, however, you go to a place and it's EXACTLY like "tittytwister913" said it was, then you know you've got to take to heart what's being said - good or bad.
Take the negative comments with a pinch of MSG - especially the ones that use words like "douche" and "rat-faced" those are generally written by ignoramuses.
There is one universal rule in this town, however: everything written about Whisk is true.
The desserts are very nice and blandly chocolatey, but the service stinks all the way to the Jade Emperor's Palace in the seventh plane of Heaven. And their attitude... man, that one rat-faced guy, he's such a douche...
...oh...
...whoops...
Fly 2 hours south, cross the boarder in HK and its amazing the quality of food and service you get for your buck/rmb/HKD compared to Shanghai. Shanghai is s*!# in comparison but you'll never get Varges, Laris, Kelly or any other big name here to admit it. Yes the quality of labor is awful, yes the turn over rate will make year head spin but at some point you got to to shut-up or put-up and do something about it. There are a few gems and some great food to be had, but just don't expect there to be service.
The problemis, SOME people CAN manage it, e-man. Generally, they charge higher prices, but you don't mind so much because they are light-years ahead of the competition.
The pants-kicker is that the people who can't manage still charge the Earth for their substandard product and trot out the "oh, but this is China...." excuse. It's a lack of leadership.
But the expat community is partly to blame: if you'd get of your lazy collective backside and learn someChinese, you could go to any number of great Chinese restaurants where the service is actually very good.
Most people are too scared to put one toe outside of Henghan Lu or Xintiandi, however.
Anyone who isn't, send me an email. I'm forming a dining club. E-man, check your profile and drop me a line.
Agree with everyone's comments above. That's why the only restaurant I like in town is Stiller's. The guy knows how to manage a restaurant and is not all over the place opening something every two months - he just focuses on delivering the details in his one place. And no, I do not work for him - I just always find it a pleasure to go there which I have never experienced in any other establishment in town. There are too many newbies opening up every type of restaurant and business here, and the lack of experience is probably at least half the reason why most of these places deliver sub par quality vs international cities elsewhere.
There are valid points to be made for both the customer's perspectives and the restauranteurs that are here in Shanghai. While as a patron I agree that I want value and a great experience when I pay, I am also reminded of the fact that as little as 5 years ago, this city had such limited choices and a lot of the restaurants available now would have been seen as a godsend for expatriates - its a testament to how the human nature forgets all good things very quickly and only remember the bad
I think there is a lot of areas that every restaurant can improve on here in the city - however, I am always surprised to see people talk about "international prices" - i'm a retail business owner here in the city, and I for one have not seen Shanghai's rent decrease over the past 10yrs, and nor is it cheaper than MOST "INTERNATIONAL CITIES" to operate - so why would one expect that with extremely high rent and high import costs on ingredients that prices are a "rip off" in the city?
an avg meal costs me about 100-250RMB range in the city when i dine out - i'm not really sure where most people are from, but i know very few BIG CITIES that are "cheaper" than shanghai and provide a much greater product...restaurants need to improve, but we shouldn't be so quick to rip them up - its always easy to point fingers and criticize, but then again, thats just this person's opinion
@theblt- 50-60 RMB for a small beer, 45 RMB for a basket of chips, 80 RMB for a burger with no fries, 35 RMB for 5 cookies.... I could go on. Not all food is imported, in fact most isn't- some chefs now are making a big to-do about buying local. Staffing costs are microscopic compared to the West (you can literally get 10 local staff for the price of 1 employee in Germany, when all social deductions are factored in) - and rent, while expensive, is on par. So why the markup? Food costs are similar (local is far cheaper, import not as expensive for non-luxury items as restaurateurs would have us believe), staff is far, far cheaper (except for supporting the diva at the top), and rent is on par. Where does the markup get justified- especially when the quality of food and service is NOT up to par? Next you'll be telling me that restos that mark up a 110 RMB bottle of wine to 400 RMB are justified, too.
Most Shanghai expat diners are not at ALL overly demanding. The problem is that the bar has been set sooooo freakin low that diners actually feel awkward complaining about totally incompetent service and wait times, and instead suck it up over and over and over again until it explodes. Don't believe me? Go to a decent restaurant in N.Y. Aside from bringing dishes on time the waiters are expected to know specs about the menu, wine list, recommend dishes, smile, chat, flirt, sing, dance, and make insightful witticisms now and again. That is a demanding service market. All that diners in Shanghai care about, on the other hand, is getting their food on time, and with as little fuss as possible. And to be treated like guests whose needs are anticipated well in advance and for whom empathy is shown and proactive measures are taken when dealing with the slew of slip-ups and delays that invariably plague the hospitality industry, here or elsewhere. The underlying point that some of these restaurateurs are missing is that you have to train, train, train,.. and keep on training your staff over and over again. Restaurateurs in Shanghai have to deal with cultural differences, language barriers, and waitiers who are overworked, unthanked, untipped (usually) and paid a pittance. But, there is still no excuse. You still CANNOT rag out your guests, no matter how irate they may be, because the task of training staff to smile and anticipate needs, and having standard operating procedures, service recovery skills and an empowered workforce is too daunting and time consuming for you to handle. And if you really have to ask a guest to leave, then ask the guest to leave, wit h pride, professionalism, and your head held high. Anything less is just unnacceptable, and restaurateurs need to be called out for their potty mouthed hissy fits on forums such as this one, Checks and balances people.
@hellowatch. Amen to that.
@ Foodiedave
quote : "@theblt- 50-60 RMB for a small beer, 45 RMB for a basket of chips, 80 RMB for a burger with no fries, 35 RMB for 5 cookies.....
Well said!, when you consider that operation costs and labor costs here are way lower than in the west, then there is no excuse for these prices and obviously there
isspare funds left for things such as proper staff training in regards to service.Venues need to realize one golden point, good service and manners brings people back thus building up a regular base of customers and increasing profit , being rude and showing a mean face with a few unkind remarks on the sly will do nothing but drive people away, and in business that just doesnt make sense, WAKE UP shanghai, its in your own interests.
@rene_shanghai, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to defend myself. Just because my reviews are generally positive does not make them "completely biased." I choose to only leave positive reviews because incomprehensibly trashing a place is not something I am interested in taking the time to do.
Well, to be fair Sophie, you should try it sometime: it's unbelievably good fun.
There are a few comments that constantly keep appearing in these reviews. Such as "International prices" and "International service".There are over 100,000 expats living here with basically all major international brands represented. Is it so odd that many places charge so called "international prices"? Speaking of which, an average western resto has an average spend of 100-250 RMB. That's 10-25 Euros. See how far that gets you in the Eurozone! A bit of McDonalds and a Latte perhaps... And how about this great "International service". Try Paris and see just how friendly French service can be. Or Scandinavia where you need to collect and return your own food in half the places. Bottom line is that Shanghai just like everywhere else has places that do and don't give you value for money. This is not a unique Shanghai thing. The places that do, will stand the test of time. The rest will go down. It's not about whether a burrito costs x or a beer costs y. If its percieved as being value for enough customers, it works. The ones who find it expensive have plenty of cheaper options in this City that pumps out new places every week. Finally we constantly hear about these "Greedy restauranteurs". Restaurants are pretty big investments and of course the owners would like to see their money back one day and eventually make a profit. Unfortunately this most of the time does not happen as restaurants are extreemly risky and often close after 1 or 2 years. The majority of restauranteurs are struggling to try to break even, not bathing in greed induced cash. restauranteurs are business people and as such wish for their businesses to make profit. I highly doubt however that they are more greedy than any other business owners.
@Palevampire: See how far 100-250 RMB gets you in Shanghai in a european resto, even without vino. We're not comparing michelin star to michelin star (tho places like JG etc will charge michelin prices and not deliver on food or service), at that price we're comparing a local eatery to a local eatery. And that money holds up fine, thankyouverymuch, even without including the cost of vino being much cheaper.
So, let's benchmark a 250 RMB/pax no booze (I understand the booze taxation is quite different) Italian resto in Shanghai (let's say Pane e Vino) and one of the same sort of positioning (nice, localish Italian that will win no stars but delivers a decent experience) where I am now, in Stuttgart. OK, it'd be a smidge pricier in Munich, but still, reasonable comparison. Food costs? Slightly cheaper in Germany, with pizzas and pastas starting at around 5.50 and running to 8.50ish (30cm pizza 'large' in such places). Mains starting upwards of 8, running to say 13-15+, up to maybe 18 for an expensive meat (steak, salmon, veal etc). Apps and desserts in the 2:50-5 range. Last I went to Pane e vino, prices would have been about 20% more, dish for dish. Rent? Comparable. Don't tell me that the bottom end of Maoming is pricier than 1 street off of Koenigstrasse still in the pedestrian shopping area. Staffing? Far, far cheaper in China. Service quality? Not obsequious, now bowing and scraping etc, but very professional. I'd rather have competent than ass-kissing any day. Food prices? Imports more expensive in SH, local cheaper. So, why is it more expensive for a less satisfactory experience?
Just because the Shanghai restaurant industry is built around expense accounts, homesick buying from expats and nouveau riche Chinese splurging does not mean that the prices 'work'. If if worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?
To recap: what I (and I think many people here) would like to see is service that is competent, and management that knows what it is doing. It is not the price per se, it is the fact that in SH you pay more for incompetent service and management. What I want isn't perfection, I want all the dishes to arrive in the correct order, be billed at the correct price, and have all diners served at the same time.
@foodiedave
And I want a pony named Starbasher!
I am apologizing now because against the advice of many people, I have decided to respond to this blog about demanding customers. Hellowatch, although I agree with many things that you say and I know I should take the high road, one can only take so much.
“PEOPLE, WAKE UP, this dirt bags are taking our money, selling burritos for $ 9 US dollars, that would be unbelievable back home, another douche is selling pan fried sea bass for $20 US dollars. Who is up to pay that prices.I went to school , I invested my time studying, went to business school abroad, and a Phd. in an university were most of the douches reading this blog wont be able to get into and I'm not up to pay this dirt bags the prices they are trying to charge.”
60 RMB a burrito? THE HORROR. I mean really people. Are you bitching about 60 RMB? Because last time I checked, a burrito at a Mexican RESTAURANT in California, is that much or more. Don’t just believe what I say, let’s take an example, let’s not even talk about expensive Mexican restaurants in LA, let’s take Acupulco, a chain restaurant that I would assume would have pretty reasonable prices for food. “Asada Burrito - Pico de gallo, jack cheese, salsa ranchera and sour cream. With rice and refried beans. Grilled Chicken 11.99 Grilled Steak 13.99” (Source: http://www.acapulcorestaurants.com/ourfood.aspx?page=SignatureQuesadillasyBurritos)
Is it unreasonable to ask our customers to pay $9 considering that we run a restaurant in downtown Shanghai and uses many imported ingredients? Can it be had for less at other Mexican restaurants in Shanghai and abroad? Yes. Can it be had for more? YES. Anyone who tells you that imported ingredients are not that much more expensive here in Shanghai is an idiot. The same idiot probably pays through the nose at City Shop because guess what, you can’t find many western imported ingredients at the most local supermarkets.
Rene_Shanghai, If you’re going to say that our Machos Nachos at Cantina Agave “Rather than a nacho platter looked liked barf” ( http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/shanghai/listings/dining/mexican/has/cantina-agave/) (1 month and 2 Weeks ago on cityweekend) then two days later say “Last night had a Nacho's crave... Called Sherpa's; Cantina Agave was temporarily unavailable due to remodelations... Hanged up and started thinking which other restaurant could have nachos... Suddenly the Boxing Cat came to my mind.. Why? because as to my understanding they have the same owner so it would be logical to expect a "similar" offer.”
Wait just one second, “similar offer” meaning that you enjoyed the barf? Are you saying that my nachos looked like barf and then two days later, you have the balls to post that you tried to order them AGAIN and then decided to go with my other restaurant Boxing Cat Brewery instead? Are you f*cking retarded dude? I mean, since you have a PHD and all, maybe you have a different level of logic than I do.
Patrons of Shanghai, I’m sorry to be so crass. I’m sorry to stoop to this level. I do think we can do better. I do try to do better. I do care about what you think. I do take the things that you tell us to heart. But, I work my ass off every day, 7 days a week. When everyone is off and having fun, weekends, holidays, eating dinner, guess what? The people in the restaurant industry are working. And damn well we should, that’s our job and I personally love my job. But sincerely, take it easy on us Shanghai. It’s not nice some of the things you say on the websites, it’s rude. I’ve seen guests yell at my service staff, “F*** You!” because there were no seats available in the bar, or they had to wait too long for a drink. Smile and take it. Yup, check. The truth is, that anytime that restaurateurs respond on websites or to blogs trying to defend slanderous comments that get put up, we get yelled at for bring unprofessional stating “the customer is always right”. That’s why I almost never respond, because there is no end.
Is there truth to what you say? Of course there is, we can always do better, and should do better. Are we a bunch of money hungry bastards trying to rip you off? Come on. If we didn’t provide something of value to our customers we would be closing our doors. If you don’t like it or you don’t find value in it, there are plenty of restaurants to choose from in Shanghai. No one is putting the gun to your head to tell you, YOU MUST EAT HERE. Cook at home for God’s sake, find a restaurant you like more! Don’t post vile things about us and then show up next week with your tail between your legs hiding behind your screen names. I don’t need or want customers like that. Tell us to our face, and you can be sure, we will try to do something to correct the situation.
"But, I work my ass off every day, 7 days a week. When everyone is off and having fun, weekends, holidays, eating dinner, guess what?"
I can only speak to my own experience, but I happen to work a seven-day week as well. And on those odd times when I have the opportunity between working and the sleep before next work to go to a restaurant, I expect good service.
It doesn't always happen. But jeez, I've CHOSEN to spend my many twenties of RMB at your restaurant and I EXPECT to be rewarded for my decision by being treated respectfully and being served good food. If I ever told a waitress to "go **** yourself" Mrs Narsfs would be the first on my case.
"Tell us to our face, and you can be sure, we will try to do something to correct the situation."
Some restaurants do make an effort to correct any mistakes in a timely and considerate manner, but not all. Rene is most definitely over critical - never seen a positive review.
Many times, however, the attitude of both staff and management has been a simple "if you don't like it, eat somewhere else" fair enough. It's your investment, your playing field you can do as you please. If you want to get all arsey about a customer asking for the volume to go down, or who doesn't like the way a dish looks ar if the waitstaff seem more interested in their phones than the clients... fair enough.
But so help me, I'll make a point of telling everyone if that's your attitude.
@Kelley. First of all, thanks for replying, it's good to have your perspective on things. I agree with Narsfs, especially about the Rene issue- you've got a lot of stick from him, and he doesn't seem to be able to look at things reasonably in fair perspective.
For me, the issue is one of service level not coming up to par- the value equation not balancing out. I don't mind spending the money IF I get decent food and decent service. I'll accept the 'you're in Shanghai now' expat industry markup if I walk out of the restaurant feeling like I had a good experience and got my money's worth. If I have a bad experience, I do take it up directly with the manager- and in many cases it is resolved, more or less. However, managerial resolution does not make up for the very high rate of service cockups in the Shanghai restaurant industry, as it still takes away from the enjoyment of the evening to have to escalate an issue. If the service was up to par, having to take something to the manager would be very, very rare- instead of a common necessity. This leads to either a sort of apathy or a lot of low-grade resentment amongst the dining populace- they either give up and TiC it, or they blow up easily over little niggles- not because the niggle that set them off is necessarily very large or annoying, but because it is damn near impossible to eat anywhere in the city without a barrage of constant service failings. Many restaurants that have been open for years still have 'soft opening' type issues- incompetence, apathy and ignorance amongst the waitstaff- and yes, I know that turnover is incredibly fast and training is difficult. But, to turn around what you told the diners, there are plenty of other markets in which you could have started your restaurants, but you CHOSE this one- so dealing with the touchy, demanding, annoying Shanghai expat consumer (and the numb ones who don't blow up), the turnover, the landlords, the red tape and the flack you get from unhappy expats on CW is par for the course.
I will concede that many expats carry around anger because they didn’t choose Shanghai and don’t like China- I’m not making excuses for F&B douchebaggery, and I’m definitely not saying that the Renes of Shanghai are correct in gleefully ripping apart the restaurants they don’t like (then going back for a second helping and doing it again). However, I don’t feel that the restaurant industry (especially that which caters to expats and the Chinese nouveau riche) is without blame. The service quality is, in general, lower and less professional than most consumers expect from the price point demanded- and while you say ‘choose another restaurant’, almost all the restaurants of that class have that problem- meaning ‘choose another flavor of incompetence’. This service failing could be swallowed more easily if most management didn’t try to dodge blame for it and say ‘this is China, what do you expect?’. We expect, or shall I say I expect, a competent restaurant experience for the money I spend. Whether there is choice of a better venue available or not, if a restaurateur fails to provide an enjoyable experience for the money they take, they have failed.FYI . My last review of Cantina Agave was positive (3 Stars):
"Last night I ordered Nachos to happily find out that Cantina FINALLY delivers the bean paste and the toppings in separate containers. Great! Chips were crispy like when i eat in the restaurant and i t was fun to dip the chips in the bean paste. Would have been a 5 stars if I had found the Guacamole . There was simply NO guacamole in my nachos. Might be the effect that separating the beans and toppings makes evident the contents"
2 stars down for no guacamole... what happens if they're five minutes late, you eat their firstborn?
@ foodiedave. Despite your self confessed expertise, Its obvious you have never run an F&B operation in Shanghai. Nor do I think you ever will. If you had, you wouldn't be coming out with all these assumptions which are in fact pretty inaccurate.
FYI there are several restaurants in shanghai with same or higher break even points than in similar restaurants in the west. its not only payroll, rent and foodcost that determine markups. Although also these costs will vary greatly depending on WHICH staff, WHICH location and which level of food products you choose. There is also for example revenue tax, income tax, gaunxi costs to jeep you in business, PR etc. The list of expenses is in fact huge. All these costs also vary a lot from case to case. Hence the argument food costs x and bla bla costs y so price should be z is nonsense unless you know the full picture.
You don't need to take my word for it. If you were to do some FACTUAL research instead of non factual assumptions you would soon see for yourself that prices are not as out of line as you pressume. I finally agree with Kells, if there is nothing here that can please you, cook at home! There's obviously no way this city can live up to your high expectations.
@twilightfan, I don't want to run an F&B enterprise in Shanghai, I just worked as a reviewer and PR consultant for F&B and hospitality in SH for 6 years. And yes, I know that overheads include more than just staffing, rent and materials- however, your 'rebuttal' is as poor as your spelling. You cite variable costs- by their variable costs are variable wherever you are. You cite tax, and criticize me for not including it- well, tax happens in other countries, too, you know. Are you trying to say that in China businesses pay more tax than in the West? You cite which staff, which location, etc. These are variables wherever you go, and if you didn't notice, I gave specific examples- you ignored them. Hell, I once cold-called a realtor to find out the actual rent a business I was writing about was paying so I could calculate their hardware overhead. You cite guanxi- well, where I come from, there's these organizations called the cops, the local government, and the mafia, and they demand their cut, too. And to reiterate, my issue isn't with price per-se, it is with the cataclysmic service failures accompanying that price. Let me put it in simple words that even a twilight fan like yourself can understand. THE QUALITY OF SERVICE GIVEN IN MOST SHANGHAI RESTAURANTS IS NOT EQUAL TO COST CHARGED FOR SAID SERVICE. They do not deliver the value for the money they demand.
Don't take my word for it. From Sean Jorgensen, courtesy of CW. "An equation I use when I grade restaurants is this: quality + service / price = value. A lot of the cheapies (i.e. English teachers) will assert that the best restaurant is the one they can afford, but most people want more than RMB10 noodles. Value is the core reason why certain restaurants are successful, and service is as much part of that value as the food on your plate.
What is wrong with the industry is the unbalanced value equation, not the price point. People may pay because they have little choice in the matter, but it does not mean that they are getting value for their money- and the fact that twits like you try to defend it just shows that many of the restos here are perfect examples of foreigners screwing foreigners. There are problems, serious problems with service here. Admit it, try to fix it, get over it- bitching and moaning about how nobody understands how difficult your career choice is just makes you seem more like an emo-goth whinger than your nick. And for a final laugh, you say "There's obviously no way this city can live up to your high expectations." - from my previous comment, my expectations are "What I want isn't perfection, I want all the dishes to arrive in the correct order, be billed at the correct price, and have all diners served at the same time. " You say that is too high for Shanghai, that wanting those simple things is too much and I should just deal with it?
I suggest you learn to properly read what is written before you try to rebut it.
"Despite your self confessed expertise, Its obvious you have never run an F&B operation in Shanghai."
Dave, I think you should listen to this guy... the overheads must be so bad that he can't even afford a spellchecker.
"Nor do I think you ever will. If you had, you wouldn't be coming out with all these assumptions which are in fact pretty inaccurate."
So you work in F&B? Oh go on, go on, go on, go on tell us who you work for! I'ma guess... a Tapas place! Maya!
"FYI there are several restaurants in shanghai with same or higher break even points than in similar restaurants in the west. its not only payroll, rent and foodcost that determine markups."
Well, if the market's so tough, why not just go into some other business? Oh, let me guess "you love the business so much you couldn't possibly abandon it" natch.
"Although also these costs will vary greatly depending on WHICH staff, WHICH location and which level of food products you choose. There is also for example revenue tax, income tax, gaunxi costs to jeep you in business, PR etc. "
Well, bloody hell, I mean, if you need a jeep to keep you in business, you're just ASKING for trouble.
...unless you're a member of the A-Team. The A-Team always needs a jeep. And some lead piping. And a blowtorch. And some handily-left-lying-around-chemicals to make a catapult that goes all like "FWATHOOOM!" to stick on the front and the bad guys are all like "peowpeoepeowpeow" but then you get all up in their face and they scatter in slow motion and jump into a ditch or something. I mean, they're not hurt or anything, just badly shaken by the whole experience and learn the error of their ways. And a sequel. The A-Team needs a sequel.
"The list of expenses is in fact huge. All these costs also vary a lot from case to case. Hence the argument food costs x and bla bla costs y so price should be z is nonsense unless you know the full picture."
Does it cost as much as a sequel to the A-Team? Because if it does, can you please stop whining and finance an A-Team sequel?
"You don't need to take my word for it. If you were to do some FACTUAL research instead of non factual assumptions you would soon see for yourself that prices are not as out of line as you pressume."
I did some factual research on the A-Team. You know what I found? In the original series, they robbed the Bank of Hanoi under orders and were sentenced to imprisonment in a maximum security stockade... well, there WAS an ACTUAL A-Team who did something like that! Holy cow! The American government ordered their soldiers to rob a bank! What's the point? Did they need change for the parking meter?
"I finally agree with Kells, if there is nothing here that can please you, cook at home! There's obviously no way this city can live up to your high expectations."
I have high expectations from this A-Team sequel you promised. Is it even in pre-production yet? I think everyone would really like another movie around 2012. Doesn't leave you much time, chop-chop.
@twilightfan says: "these costs will vary greatly depending on WHICH staff" - just a sec, are you trying to tell me that the shite service staff in Shanghai costs MORE? The whole point of this thread is that the service ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE COST- I wouldn't go citing staffing prices if I were you. I also wouldn't call myself "Palevampire", either, or embarrass myself by spelling so poorly. Let me reiterate my 'high expectations' from the staff: CORRECT DISHES, AT THE CORRECT PRICE, IN THE CORRECT ORDER, SERVED AT THE CORRECT TIMES. You want an answer that doesn't involve so much mockery? Answer as to whether that's really an unreasonably high expectation.
Language, David!
I have come to expect better from you, young man! Calling people out on their BS is not nice in any culture - and particularly in China!
And besides, if you keep swearing at him, he probably won't make another A-Team movie, we need him on board otherwise the whole production falls through.
For the record i dont work for cosmogroup. I do however like what they do as well as what several other operators do in this town. Do I own succesful F&B outlets in town? Maybe I do, maybe I dont.
You guys are great bloggers though. Enjoyed the ranting. Cheers!
Keep the language clean guys, otherwise the comments will be removed.
I totally agree with foodie Dave customers want basic service nothing more. The problem also is caused by Expats blaming themselves for the bad service. After being involved in one of the discussions that led to this page being created i found a discussion called Are Shanghai Customers Just Too Demanding? what was wrong with calling it Does the service in Shanghai meet expectations?. This is China and as my friends in the service industry here and abroad tell me the Chinese are the most demanding customers they have to deal with not demanding Westeners.
Interesting debate. I think there's a huge difference between overly demanding customers, and genuinely disappointed clients. Often service in Shanghai is awful, and genuinely unacceptable. Of course, there are people who will moan about the smallest of details, but that shouldn't detract from the real service problems afoot here.